Friday, January 6, 2012

Weapons

I've wanted to write this post for a while, but I held off because I didn't think it would make much sense.  There's five major groups of weapons in LotTO.  They are:

Two handed weapons (fire-axe & maul)
One handed weapons (longsword, wooden sword, torch)
Martial Arts (unarmed, weighted gloves)
Wands (starter wand, fire wand)
Staves (staff of water, staff of earth)

Before you read any further, take a second & rank those five groups in your head.  Is there one group that's your favorite?  Why?  How about is there one you always ignore?  Although it may not be obvious, I'm trying fairly had to balance all five against each other.  Now that I've played with them a bit, there's going to be some buffs coming.

So, here's my opinion on the 5 groups.  If you're feeling chatty, now's a great time to disagree.  =D

1. One handed weapons.  Grade: A+   Not too long ago I re-tuned this special attack so that monsters wouldn't be knocked clear on the first hit.  That really put these weapons over the top, as now you have a very safe attack that does fantastic damage.  These weapons were supposed to have problems with ranged casters & with monsters creeping up behind them.  To a minor extent that's true, but it's not nearly the downside I was expecting.  Changes: None planned.  They're powerful, but I'm okay with that (and I hate nerfs).  New one handed weapons may suffer slightly though, as I will likely only apply very minor bonuses.  If they still feel too powerful after a round of changes, I may slightly reduce their reach, but I'd rather not go that route yet.

I'll also note that I think this is a large part of why folks say Farah is too powerful.  Her default weapon is simply better than anything else out there.

2. Martial Arts.  Grade: B+  Martial arts combines good damage with a fair bit of movement.  In most cases that movement is a good thing, as it keeps any monsters from creeping up behind you.  It also has the best special in the game (arguable perhaps, but it does have the longest invincibility).  The downside of martial arts is that it can be downright terrible if the monster is immune to knockback (tentacles) or merely highly resistant (slime boss).  More so than any other weapon group, I think this one requires a backup weapon.  Other than that drawback though, I think martial arts are quite solid.  Changes: None planned, although later weapons will probably get some reach on them.

3. Wands.  Grade: B-   I hear that wands are terrible.  I'll grant that they're not awesome, but I think they're really solid.    Wands have the ability to keep mobs offscreen, making them the safest weapon of the bunch.  They do very good damage and they bypass damage reduction.  Their special attack has the highest DPS of any weapon class out there, making them my boss killer of choice.  Their only real drawback is they aren't good when you're surrounded by multiple monsters.  The basic attack has a slow fire rate, and the special attack grants almost no invulnerability.  I think it's the last part that makes folks dislike wands.  If you're about to break a grapple & you're surrounded by multiple monsters, the wand is probably the worst choice for making some space.  Changes:  I have been playing with how projectiles work.  You can now cancel enemy projectile attacks with your own (assuming they touch).  That wasn't meant to be a buff honestly, just something I wanted to include.  But I'm noticing that it makes wands a tad stronger.  The actual planned buff here is that I'm going to extend the minimum range a bit.  It's supposed to be the ranged weapon, but for a low spirit character I think the normal sword has a longer reach.  I'm also hoping to include some better wands earlier in the game.

4. Two handed weapons.  Grade: C   Let me back up here.  Every weapon has a 'difficulty' assigned to them.  So for example, many of you noticed that when K. Fox first equips the weighted gloves, she loses her fifth attack.  For the gloves, that last attack requires a body score of 7 for her, and typically she'll have a 5 or a 6 when she first finds them.  Similarly, the wooden sword & the longsword both have the same attack chain, but getting the entire attack chain with the longsword requires a much higher body score.

I'm pointing that out because so far I've only introduced two extremely heavy, off-balance two handed weapons.  They both have an extremely high difficulty rating.  I don't think it's even possible to see the final attack in the chain yet.  I'm of the opinion that these weapons are actually great.  As soon as y'all see the fourth attack in the animation, I think that this class of weapons will jump up there with the 1 handed weapons.  Maybe not quite as good, but definitely viable (Grade A or A-).  Changes: None, other than adding some better weapons in this group.

5. Staves.  Grade: F   Staves are in a rather distant last place right now.   Which I find funny, as the special attacks are crazy powerful (imo).  I'm pretty sure a fully powered meteor would one-shot the slime boss, just to give you some idea.  But their basic attacks are terrible, and the special move has no invulnerability.  So, it's really tough to justify using them (other than as a backup weapon for their special). Changes: I'm playing with having the projectile continue after it hits.  It makes it sort of a baby AoE attack, as it can hit & push back multiple monsters.  What I'm seeing right now may actually be too powerful, but I think I can balance it out.  I don't think it will make Farah players jealous, but it will definitely makes casters pause & think which weapon class they want.


So that's my mindset at the moment.  Although I don't think it's possible to get them all perfectly balanced, I'd like to be able to grade all five of them as either an A or at least a high B.  I'm not there right now, but I think I'm on my way.  For whatever reason, this is one of the most enjoyable parts of making the game for me, so don't be shocked if this part comes up again.  =)

DirtyC101


8 comments:

  1. Oh so that's why Krystals last attack disapeared when I equipped the gloves

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  2. - Well a 2-Handed Weapon could be also a Katar or double sided Blade, Lance

    - Staves could be also some some of Magic Books
    with strong skills like a fireball and as special a Meteor as AoE

    - you could also adjust the weapon types with speed and power malus (Dagger fast but weak = Sword slower but stronger, Axe = strong but slow, Katar = Fast but weak)

    Staffs, Canes stronger basic but slower casting and movement
    Book weak basic but stronger and faster casting with more movement

    You could do it like this with every weapon class like:

    Class Type Weapon one Handed
    Type A 1-1 Daggers Speed 4, Range 1, Power
    Type A 1-2 Swords Speed 2, Range 2, Power 2
    Type A 1-3 Blades Speed 1, Range 2, Power 3

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  3. I Think the weapons are completely balanced, and that each weapon has good and bad things propely of each one.

    Starter Wand:
    the starter wand is one of the greats attacking in range, you can defeat all enemies in a big range without taking any damage, and the player is who should find the form to play... chouching when are receiving a range attack, or using grapping attacks when is necessary. The strategy is not to be surrounded and attack your enemies away.

    The water staff:
    I think it's a quest item (created only for the fire) and not an "weapon" propely. I dont know if the special attack does something,but the range and the damage is low.

    The starter sword:
    I have not preference of this item, 'cause with the special attack you can only attack in the same location. Is nice to keep the enemies in a distance, but not cool if you want to kill them quickly.

    Fireman Axe:
    exelent, does great damage and keep the enemies away. The bad point is the cooldown time, but it is how it should be. And I preffer the axe being cleaved on the ground, I dont like the third attack kick ('cause everytimes I finish being raped =/ ).

    Martial arts:
    In my case, it fails. You need to be to much close the enemy and the attacks dont keep they away, making you being raped anyways (including the special attack).

    and I dont like the other weapons.

    I think the characters are balanced, but Kfox and the mage (that I not remember the name :/) haves more posibilities to die. Anyways, you can increase the damage of magic, and a bit the distance of knockoff of the martial arts.


    Weapons ideas:
    - the tank's cannon used like a hammer. (two hands)
    - laser sabble? (one hand).
    - I like the idea of @moonchaos of a Magic Book.
    - nunchakus for martial arts (like normal martial arts but more range).

    also, with the Gloves, you can add someothers combos or animations of attack. The fun part of the martial arts are the combos :P


    see you!

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  4. Its been awhile since I posted, but I've been following the blog the whole time (will always hold the first comment ever :P).

    As far as the weapons go, they are horribly unbalanced and I believe your post makes good with that. However, I have a few things I would like to make.

    Martial arts - Should always require some level of both Body and Spirit if her attacks are supposed to. Instead of a body 7, why not have it require both body and spirit 5 for the gloves? If that is the case, maybe having a modifier for class-specific weapons or class-trained weapons be easier for that class to use. Martial arts itself is hardly a failure. I find that two taps of the special attack drop most enemies, and can damage multiple enemies at the same time when done right.

    Wands: They are amazing. Ranged attack with multiple projectiles? And the fact the special is just a flurry of them? You can keep distance, again you just gotta know how to use it.

    One-Handed weapons: They're great.

    Two-Handed weapons: IMO - I don't touch two-handed weapons at all. While they excell in reach, they just are not very quick.

    Staves: The massive AOE spells they have drain life like all other specials, but their regular attack sucks as its slow as hell. Staves should have a much harder pack to their punch over-all. Also, the meteor AOE spell sucks as you require a lot of space in order to properly charge it, and I have yet to be able to use it properly. I avoid the staff like the plague.

    Also, if you're going to be having requirements for weapons to be used to their fullest potential, you really need to consider using a leveling system, even something basic like 0-5, level 0 being current condition and level 5 being the absolute peak of their fighting ability. A simple way to think about it would be the following formula for Martial Arts (these are not cumulative):

    Level 0 : As is.
    Level 1 : +1 body
    Level 2 : +1 body, +1 spirit
    Level 3 : +2 body, +1 spirit
    Level 4 : +2 body, +2 spirit
    Level 5 : +3 body, +3 spirit

    (Switiching one of the bonuses to either body or spirit would make sense for the other classes so total is +4 to one stat, +2 to the other)

    Alternatively, you could add a second or third accessory slot, but not allow for duplicate items.

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  5. So I admit I haven't done a thorough check for weapon balance but off-hand my list (combination preference/perceived power) is

    Two Handed Weapons (pack a punch worth the slow speed in my opinion)
    Staves (admit I don't use them much, I'm a big grapple fan, but I thought they were the magic equivalent of the 2 handed weapon)
    Wands (hard to beat that range, if I didn't like grapples so much I think I'd find the wand very powerful)
    One Handed Weapons (just seem balanced to me, but actually with all of them sounds like your analysis is probably more accurate than my perception)
    Martial Arts (Seem the weakest option with the added insult of 'if I'm touching them why aren't I grappling'? Though I do love to see the full combo/special)

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  6. I like the idea that K. Fox should have a weapon style that she's best at, just like the other two do. Unarmed needing a backup weapon isn't all that bad because K can take her pick from magic or phys... she just can't use moves/weapons that need the highest stats. To use your example, for swords she'd have to either go with wooden, which has lower STR reqs for full combo... or go with longsword and not get the full chain.

    Maybe to make it so that she is the best there is at unarmed combat, you can either require minimum stat levels from each stat, or even base unarmed damage/combo length on the WEAKER of the two stats (and multiply that stat by 2)

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  7. Two handed weapons have my preference, and it is not only because it is Farah that handles them. They have long reach and let a satisfying feeling of hurting people.

    Then come Staves. I love the way they help you to keep your grounds on horde mode. Problem is that, outside of horde mode, they are craps. By the way, it would be great if we could choose our gear in horde mode. I mean from the start, without having to play the game a (135th) time.

    One handed weapons come just after. They are probably the best for killing people, but they lack the pure coolness of the two first ones. Maybe because they do not provide you with a bit of challenge, so the gameplay becomes more repetitive and less tactical.

    Then, wands and martial arts arrive last. I do not strongly dislike them. But I prefer big weapons, which do massive damage, over small ones which help you strike a lot for minor effects. Of course, it is good to have them for people who feel exactly the opposite.

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  8. really, the staffs DO need some work. with the wind-up/cool-down time on swinging them, they NEED their shots to keep going. While their specials MAY be powerful, the fact that they have NO invincibility OR immediate knockback to them means they're almost totally worthless. If you're going to have a big, slow, vulnerable attack like that in game, you need to have characters that can maneuver around enemies to line up the shot. In this game... you can't even jump. If an enemies on your right, they're staying on that side of you until you kill them, not to mention that you have a VERY short visual range to work with.

    While the close camera and slow characters aren't BAD for the game overall... they do mean that the staffs just DON'T work.

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